Have a question about the framebuilding profession or one about the craft itself?
Let us know and we’ll try to reply in a timely manner.

Hi -
I was wondering if you knew of any Denver frame builders or companies where i could seek out an
internship or apprenticeship. I am a student welder at the moment, but got into welding initially
because I wanted to build frames.  Any help would be great, thank you.
Allender

Denver has a wealth of small builders, but most work solo. Your best bet is to contact Yeti
Cycles or Dean USA for an internship. daVinci Designs, a boutique tandem manufacturer,
also has an occasional apprentice/internship position.
Cheers!
Don Ferris

Dear TFC
I’m currently tooling up to start fabricating steel frames and have huge questions regarding the welding. 1) First,
I was wondering what mostly everyone was using for cover gas? I know Argon is supposed to leave a small bite
at the toe of the weld but it seems to be the most popular choice. Is anyone using and Argon Oxy blend which in
theory alleviates this. 2) Second, I was wondering what the preferred tungsten blend and sizes, and filler rod
compositions are. Does everyone pretty much match the rod to the tube set or do you use stronger alloys than
the weldement/base itself? 3) Last, water cooled or air cooled torch? I notice a lot of frame welders holding the
nozzle, I’m currently using an air cooled torch and the nozzle gets fairly hot and fairly quickly. As an ex-architect,
I’d love to be able to choke up to the nozzle as this is what I’m familiar with. Will a water cooled setup help with
the nozzle temps at such low amperage or is this more of a product of short cycles/beads?
Thanks in advance!
Christopher

Hi Christopher,
I’ll try to answer your questions in a nutshell. I’ve pasted the original message below and responded to
each part. This is a broad subject and there is no “correct” way to do anything when it comes to welding.
There are as many ways to get good results as builders welding. I’ll share with you the basics of my setups.
I also highly recommend you visit the site of Don Ferris, he has a very detailed and accurate description of
a lot of what you are interested in here:

http://www.anvilbikes.com/?news_ID=22&catID=3

1) I’m not sure what you mean by a bite. Most if not all framebuilders are using straight Argon. I’ve heard of
blends and even experimented with a Helium blend (for more heat when you weld aluminum) and super pure
Argon for titanium but have always gone back to a regular old stock argon from the welding store.

2) Most builders use 1/16th tungsten although some will go larger. My preference is 1/16th.  I use both 2%
thoriated and have also been experimenting with ceriated which is not radioactive. The ceriated performs well
when perfectly clean but does not perform well otherwise. The thoriated  is a lot more forgiving. For filler most
builders seem to use 1/16” ER70S2 although many have started to migrate to an 880T stainless over recent
years.There are also some tubes that require specific weld wire and you just need to be aware of what they
are and follow the manufactures recommendation.

3) I use air-cooled but I have no argument against water cooled. I use a fan on demand and like it because it’s
quiet and I’m not listening to fans and pumps run while I weld. The key to holding the torch by the cup is to use
a gas lens style collet body. The extra gas flow does a great job of keeping the torch cool.  I will point out that
once you are proficient at welding you’ll find that it’s better to hold the torch back behind the head on the stem
because it will give you better rotational mobility and reach and you can make longer cleaner runs between stops.

Hopefully that helps. I think you’ll find a lot of good insight at Don’s website along with some differing opinions.
Good luck.
Carl Strong

Hi Guys,
Looking at building my first bike frame. I have most of the tools required for the build. Brazing
is the part of the process that is a bit worrisome to me. I have soldered copper pipe before but
nothing in these temperatures. I need to make an initial investment in a brazing torch / kit of
some sort. I am looking at MAPP gas or Air Acetylene. What would you recommend? Would
this be hot enough if I decide to experiment in fillet weld brazing as I gain experience?
Regards,
Joe

Joe,
MAPP gas or air acetylene are hot enough for silver brazing but just barely.  Neither
would work very well for fillet brazing.  I’d recommend getting an oxy/acet torch.
This torch set up will give you more options.  It works well for silver and brass brazing.
Also an oxy/acet torch setup is useful for projects other than bike building.  Good luck.
Curt Goodrich

Hello,
I was hoping some one could give me some guidance. I am a small steel frame builder in New Hampshire.
I have a friend who has a Giant TCR and his cable stops have come off his top tube. What would the preferred
method be to install new ones. I am concerned with drilling and riveting into his top tube. What are the concerns
with epoxy or glues and the carbon.
Thanks,
Frank

Dear Frank
There are two typical reasons a riveted cable stop fails. Either the rivet shears/fails or the hole in
the substrate fails. Determine which the case is. Most of these rivets call for a 1/8” proud hole. If the
hole is much bigger than this then the stop should be relocated. I prefer stainless rivets as aluminum
rivets tend to lack shear strength. Rivets are spec’d by the diameter of the hole, grip range (total thickness
of parts being held together) and pull strength (strength required to pop the mandrel off). I recommend
cheery CCP-43 and CCP-44 found at Wicks Aircraft.

The biggest hurdle is having a rivet gun in which the nose rests flush and square on the flange of the rivet.
The cable stops themselves prevent this. If the nose of the gun isn’t square, flush and held firmly on the
rivet flange at pull, then the rivet is likely to become loose. Most guns require modification to accomplish
with the typical cable stop. New holes should be drilled either with a .125” diamond point at high speed
(dremel, use caution) or a very sharp .125” 130d point drill. Use vary light pressure and slow feed. The
concern is tear-out on the backside.

You may find additional comfort in doping the back of the rivet with a bit of 2 part epoxy prior to installation.
The Carbon composites typically found in bicycle frames use an epoxy matrix and thus are compatible with
most 2 part epoxies. This does not include painted or clear coated surfaces. See epoxy instructions for surface
preparation instructions.

As for bonding the stop in place, most aluminum cable stops intended to be riveted have inadequate surface area
for their required holding strength. I do not recommend simply bonding the stops in place.
Nick Crumpton

Dear TFC,
I’m hoping to work towards frame building as a secondary income for my family. I’ve learned welding,
put together a couple of chopper/freak bike, and with the recent access to a frame jig, I’m hoping to put
together my first frame. My question is this. What kind of profit/income is average for a frame builder.
Obviously there must be a large range, but could you give me some rough idea. Thanks -
David

Hi David,
In the beginning while learning most builders take much longer than they should to build
a frame. It is during that initial phase the builder also may be forced to accept low prices for
their work in order to make sales. Unfortunately that usually means is that until the balance
between fabrication time and frame price starts to tip towards profitability a new builder
normally ends up subsidizing the framebuilding business with  a “job” rather than subsidizing
a “job” with framebuilding.

You’re right to think that there is a wide range of cost and income for a framebuilder. I can
give you an idea of what that range is to help you figure out where you might want to fit into it.

Custom frames sell from $750 to $10,000, (though most fall in the $2-4000 range).

Time into a frame can range from 4 to 300 hours, with the average being 20 to 40 hours per
frame. The building of a frame is just a portion of owning a framebuilding business. In my
experience, when you factor in customer service, fitting, book keeping, designing, parts and
frame material ordering etc., the fabrication portion of the job is about 1/3 of the total work.

Materials can cost between $50 and $1000 per frame depending on material.

Paint can range from a $75 industrial grade powder job to a $1000+ show finish job.

Overhead (rent, utilities etc.) can range from $0 to $2000 a month depending on how much
space you have, where it is etc. Obviously for a one person shop you wouldn’t need $2000
worth of space, but for a 5-6 person operation this amount for space could be realistic.

Liability insurance costs a minimum of around $2000 per year. This is critical for anyone
building frames as it protects both the builder and the customer.

Taxes for a sole proprietor would be similar as what you would pay through another job. Once
a builder has employees, that percentage of his costs goes up.

Promotional budget (website, branding, advertising, sponsorship, etc.) can range from $0 to 10
or 15 thousand a year. Factor in going to shows, running a race team, working with professional
photographers and designers.

One piece of advice that I can offer you is to start small. Use your friends equipment, and allow
yourself to feel the process out without the pressure of “starting a business” and “having to sell
what you make for a bunch of money to pay off loans”. Give yourself time to explore and learn
and find out if a) building is a good fit for you and b) what your place in this niche of the cycling
industry might be.

I hope that this all helps you make an informed decision.
My best,
Sacha and The Framebuilders’ Collective

Dear TFC
1) Do you know what a plus or minus price range would be to produce American made steel frame
commuter bikes on an American production line? 2) I know that’s an impossible question to answer
but figured I’d go with gusto! Do you know what might be average costs of steel tubing for a standard
single speed commuter frame? Not including any labour.
Thanks from Ian

Hello Ian -
1) The members of The Framebuilders’ Collective are not production houses. We are all at the far other
end of the market and ours is a perspective of experience that comes from working in small production
numbers and with individual clients. It is not possible for us to give a credible reply to this question.
2) Your best approach to solving this would be to contact all the industry suppliers and cull all of the
information into a spread sheet and further amortize the results over the projected manufacturing quotas.
Darrell L McCulloch {Dazza}

Hi all
Sorry if this is a new guy type of question. Went for a ride with a new guy in town yesterday and noticed
his left hip sits what looks to be about 10MM (or more) lower than the right I questioned him about it
and he told me that he was having problems with his feet when walking/running. He went to a podiatrist,
they measured his leg bones and found his right femur is 10MM shorter and from ankle to knee the left
was shorter by 2MM. He was made a 6MM orthotic for his right walking shoe and told to have a 6MM raiser
made for his cycling boot. Because there is only 2MM difference from knee down, I wouldn’t have thought
he is needing a riser under his right cycling boot (makes sense for walking shoe since the whole leg straightens
out) I’m not saying what he has been told to do is wrong (but he looks wrong on the bike) but I am keen to
learn and I’m interested in some opinions and a bit of insight from those that have more experience then I do.
He wears the right side of his saddle out in just three months!
Cheers
Justin.

Justin,
Does the rider already have the riser in his cycling shoe? First, for cycling, he wouldn’t have a riser
in his shoe, but instead a spacer under the cleat. I’ll answer assuming that the rider does not have the
adjustment already. Biomechanical issues can have an effect on frame design and the client’s pedaling
technique. A deep and detailed understanding of cycling biomechanics is a subject that a professional
frame builder cannot be expected to have. But I think frame builders need to have some fundamental
grasp of this subject and be able to recognize client’s biomechanical issues when they are apparent,
as you noticed when you saw this ‘new guy in town’. This is where a good and motivated bespoke/
custom frame builder can be great assistance to a client. This rider does still need to cater for his leg
length discrepancy {let’s call it LLD} when cycling.

You would look at two things with this rider; saddle setback to deal with the femur length, and saddle
height to deal with the entire leg length discrepancy.

The New Guy should have his saddle set back determined in part by his femur length, but for which leg?
The longer or the shorter? The frame geometry will be affected to get the correct saddle set back.

The femur drops down at a fair angle when the foot passes through the bottom of the pedal stroke. So
with the seat at the correct height for the long leg, the short leg will compensate with a different foot
angle {toe down} to stop the leg over extending when the foot passes through 6 o’clock. This changes
the pedal force direction the rider applies to the foot and reduces the pull through at the bottom of the
pedal stroke.

Or the rider may have the seat at the correct height for the shorter leg, which then forces problems onto
the longer leg, traveling up to the pelvis.

Both of these corrections can set up a rocking pelvis and or twisted pelvis in a horizontal plane. A rocking
pelvis can create problems with the spine all the way up to the neck and shoulders (neck pain, even referral
to the hands with pins and needles).

This rider probably does need a 4-6mm spacer under the cleat. I have made many of these and I actually
have to make some this week for a client who has just met with Dr Brian McLean, who is considered to be
Australia’s top cycling Biomechanist. {I am fortunate to have worked with Brian for many years}.

However, a cleat spacer and saddle adjustment and correct frame geometry may not fix this rider’s issues.
Simply making using spacers may not make the imbalance go away.

The rider in this case may have been running and riding for many years in this imbalanced manner and
thus many muscles and tendons have lengthened and shortened or become lazy or strong and dominate.
These many imbalances may only increase with the passing of time.  So even after corrective mechanical
work, things can still pull back out of line in very short time.

The rider will have to work on their pedal technique and train a good round pedal stroke, always thinking of
pedal force direction with both legs. It may take some work with physiotherapists and then some corrective
exercises and most importantly, a weekly trip to a good masseur to hammer out tightness. All the associated
professional people and the client usually communicate a little in the beginning to work together to get all
running smooth and everyone knows what the destination will be and what varied ways there are to get there.

After the initial work, it may be only a fortnightly trip to their trusted masseur for an hour of pounding on the
table to keep all sweet. This is underestimated by many cyclists. They spend thousands on fancy bike equipment,
seeking tiny perceived performance gains, but shy away from spending $30 to $50 a week with their good caring/ knowledgeable masseur who really assists in ensuring the engine runs balanced and problem free. Make a cleat
spacer and go from there.
Cheers
Darrell Llewellyn McCulloch

Can you share what steps the collective has made towards meeting the mission.
D.S.

The near two years leading up to TFC’s going public took a lot of planning, time,
and energy from all the players. After NAHBS and our site’s going live, the eight of
us went back to our individual benches and tended to the important stuff: filling
orders. We meet electronically several times a week to discuss the same issues that
are part of the mission statement. For now, the ASK page and several other mentoring
projects are the most overt steps we have taken. We are also receiving and reviewing
applications from other framebuilders who would like to join us. The plan is to be around
for generations to come, and we feel we are only just setting the table for that now.
When something concrete happens, it will be posted on the TFC site as soon as possible.
Richard Sachs

I am not a framebuilder, however I have a deep founded respect for the craft. I am looking for some
expertise on the difference in a frame made with 853 Reynolds steel and chromoly 4130. Advantages
or disadvantages. Thank you.
Will

Hi Will, The greatest determinate of a frames character is ultimately design and construction.
Taking all other elements out of the equation and focusing on just the steel alloy 853 differs
from 4130 in that it is a lot stronger. 4130’s strength is about 60 KSI. Alone that doesn’t mean
much but when compared to 853’s 180+ KSI you can see that 853 has a lot more strength. What
that means is that you can use less 853 to yield a tube the same strength as a 4130 tube. Thus
an 853 frame will be lighter for the same strength. So to answer your questions the difference
in a frame made from 853 as compared to 4130 is that it will be lighter and also more expensive,
853 tubes cost considerably more than 4130.

Are you guys planning to link all of your websites to The Framebuilders Collective? It only makes sense and
makes it easy for people to see what’s offered by each builder.
Rob

The TFC was not designed as a marketing tool so we wanted to take the focus off the builders
and their brands and focus on the mission of the collective.

To Whom It May Concern:
A small group of people in the Indianapolis, IN area are interesting in learning how to
make custom road and mountain bike frames. Can you suggest a person to contact in
the area that might be able to help out? We are interested in experimenting with various
materials and specs to develop bikes that fit our riding styles and needs.
Regards,
S. N.

Hi Steve. Currently we don’t have any members in your area. What you might do
to get started is to begin your initial research on the internet. I think with a little
effort you shouldn’t have any trouble finding some direction and a place to start.
Once you’ve exhausted the resources on the Internet you’ll probably have a pretty
good idea of exactly what your resources are, where they are, what is involved in
getting started. Here is a list of some of the best resources I know of. Good luck!

http://www.phred.org/mailman/listinfo/framebuilders
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/index.php
http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=142
http://anvilbikes.com/
http://www.bikeschool.com/

I’m currently a hobby builder, but have as a long term goal to operate a one man
shop that is profitable and self sustaining. Will The Framebuilder’s Collective be a
business information as well as a fabrication resource for people wanting to make the jump?
M.O.

We certainly hope to offer many resources and much information so that anyone seriously
interested in making framebuilding a profession will have an easier time of it. We’d prefer to
help open as many doors as possible.
Richard Sachs

The Framebuilders’ Collective is a diverse group of people with different experiences and
viewpoints. Does the group aim to speak with a unified voice or is this more of a ‘let thousand
flowers bloom, we’re just providing the tenor here’ type of thing?
W.S.

The Collective is a group, but framebuilders are individuals! We’ll do what we can to be impartial,
act on behalf of the trade rather than our individual businesses, and remain as objective as possible.
Richard Sachs